Supporting your emotional wellbeing as a new mum, with Gidget Foundation

Becoming a parent is the biggest change that we ever go through. Whilst it can be filled with joy, the perinatal period can come with increased anxiety, depression and other perinatal mental health issues that can often go undetected.

Arabella Gibson is the CEO of Gidget Foundation Australia - a not for profit that support expectant and new parents experiencing perinatal depression and anxiety. In this interview, she explains:

• The symptoms of post natal depression
• How do we know we’re not just sleep deprived, and it’s something more serious
• How parents can get into The Gidget House for counselling
• How The Gidget Foundation came into existence
• How The Gidget Foundation supports pregnant and new parents.
• The upgrade to Gidget House in North Sydney

Support Services

• Gidget Foundation: Call 1300-851-758 or visit their website.
• PANDA: For immediate help contact PANDA on 1300 726 306. The PANDA National Perinatal Anxiety and Depression helpline is open Mon-Fri 9.00am to 7.30pm (AEST)
• Lifeline: 13 11 14. Helpline is open 24 hours/day
• Beyond Blue: 1300 22 46 36

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Transcript

0:02 
Welcome to The Parenting Couch with Rachel Chappell and Sarah Levett. Honest conversations about what parenting is really like. Because let's be real, it can be hard, proudly brought to you by North Shore Mums.

0:18 Rachel
Welcome to another episode of The Parenting Couch. I'm Rachel Chappell.

0:23 Sarah
I'm Sarah Levett. And today our guest is talking to us about actually a very important cause and organisation. She is CEO of The Gidget Foundation, also CEO of twins, and she joins us thank you so much for your time today. Arabella Gibson.

0:40 Arabella
Thanks so much Sarah and Rachel, it's great to be here.

0:43 Sarah
It's such an amazing thing that you guys do if you could elaborate just to give everyone more information exactly what The Gidget Foundation does.

0:55 Arabella
Well, The Gidget Foundation began 21 years ago now through a great tragedy at that time, a beautiful, beautiful girl whose name was Louise. Her nickname was actually Gidget. She was this kind of vibrant, gorgeous, beautiful, fun woman who like for example, she even wore kind of a beautiful red dress to her wedding, her wedding day. She had this kind of, I don't know, just a really sunny disposition and a beautiful approach to life. And she had a husband who adored her, she had a family who was super close to sisters and mum and dad who were just such a fabulous family. And finally, after going through quite a bit, to get her little BB she finally ended up with a beautiful girl, little baby girl who when she was nine months old, did you realize that she was really suffering from fear and shame and denial about what was going on with her mental health. And she didn't know how to deal with that. And, tragically, she did go on to take her own life. And she left behind this this absolute tragic thing where, you know, her family and friends couldn't understand it, because there was this woman who had a smile on this perfect kind of masked face that, you know, she seemed to be really enjoying life and, and loving having a little bob. And behind the scenes, there was obviously a lot more going on. And she was some she was really struggling. And so from that we ended up with what is now an incredible legacy to her life and her loss. And we have The Gidget Foundation, which 21 years on, you know, is a really significant service delivery to support new mums and new dads who might be suffering from perinatal depression and anxiety.

2:38 Rachel
So was The Gidget Foundation launched by her family. How did it actually start after that tragedy? Or was it something that the government recognised? And you know, at that time, 21 years ago, there probably wasn't as much support for new mums and there wasn't as much, you know, awareness of mental health issues.

2:58 Arabella Gibson
Yeah, look, absolutely, there was hardly any education and hardly any awareness. And in fact, people really, you know, scratching their heads, I remember really clearly standing at gadgets funeral and looking around and just seeing this incredible depth of grief because no one could really understand what was going on. You know, we didn't talk about mental health 21 years ago, we certainly didn't talk about it in pregnancy, childbirth, and new parenthood, because it's meant to be joyful. It's meant to be fabulous. It's meant to be amazing, you know, it's meant to be the thing you've you've been put on the earth to do is to procreate and you know, it's all just meant to happen naturally imperfectly. I'd be amazing. And it's not like that all the time. There's, in fact, it's actually very much the opposite to that. And I think that, that now we're in a position where you know, we empathize, we understand, we're more aware of what's going on in the world, and how difficult it is to raise a family and all the pressures that we have on us as families these days and, and I think we've also lost that village to a degree but back then you didn't talk about it. The legacy is very much been education, it's been awareness. And we began because what happened was gadgets, best friends and her two sisters. They sat around a table one day and what started very much as an outpouring of grief and an opportunity to share and support each other turned into, well, what are we going to do? How are we going to channel this grief? How are we going to make change? How are we going to support other people so that other gadgets out there don't end up down this path? You know, what are we going to do and so The Gidget Foundation began to really drive that education to drive that awareness and to enter support people

4:36 Rachel
Fast forward to now what does The Gidget Foundation offer mums who are struggling through pregnancy and those first few months. How do they get in touch? How do they access your services?

4:50 Arabella Gibson
Your look, the best thing to do is to see GP, we know that mums and dads for that matter will find it hard to Talk about what they're feeling, and to share it with friends or family. In the first instance, I think going to a medical professional and sharing with them that you are struggling that you are finding things difficult and more difficult than you anticipated them to be is a really good place to start because GPs are trained to support you in finding that next stage of support. Our services do require a GP referred mental health care plan, which is basically a mini report that a GP writes up diagnosing someone with needing that extra support, and then they refer them through to us. And the reason we need that is because we are a free service, we have no out of pocket expenses, and we build through Medicare. So it's a Medicare requirement. But also it means that we have a really holistic approach to someone's care, and it means that we're in contact with their GP, and we can ensure that they've got the support they need from that, you know, complete encompassing perspective.


And how does a new mum know that she might have postnatal depression? Or she might just be struggling a little bit? What what are the real sort of symptoms or things that you might look out for if if you're actually really struggling with with postnatal depression?

6:12 Arabella Gibson
Yeah, look, we find that if you are experiencing symptoms for more than a two week period, it's definitely worth considering. And those symptoms can be everything from appetite changes, to increased irritability, not being able to sleep or being able to or just continually wanting to sleep and nothing else. It can be things like, you know, loss of memory, loss of concentration, finding it hard to make any kind of decisions, not enjoying the things that you used to find great enjoyment with lots of feelings of helplessness and hopelessness. But also on the flip side of that, it can be feelings of aggravation, frustration, you know, anger, almost rage sometimes. So it's when you're out of whack, you're not your usual kind of balanced self. And, you know, naturally, we all you know, swings, swings and roundabouts were kind of, you know, we go a little one way or the other from time to time, and then we recalibrate. But I think it's when we know that we're heading in one direction, and we're finding it really hard to try to recalibrate, that's the time to reach out. Because, and I can't stress this enough. One of the things that I've learned in my role at gadget is that, in everyone I talked to, they say to me, if only I'd reached out earlier, you know, I wouldn't have had to spend the last six months a year, two years, three years, five years, seven years, however long, they spent feeling like that. And if they'd reached out, they've got that support, they've got the help earlier, it would have been a much quicker turn around. And they would have been back on that journey of life and having a really, you know, fulfilled understanding of what their journey was, and, and the tools and mechanisms in order to cope and manage would be in place because they would have kind of gone through that process. So it is really important to reach out to someone and your GP is the best place to start.

8:08 Sarah
Rachel and I were talking just yesterday, you know, ahead of this interview, and, you know, realising that, and I can see how it could really go from there to there. You know, like we were talking about it in hindsight, oh, actually, I was having a hard time. And I didn't not at the level necessarily you're talking about but when you're sleep deprived, it's your first time, you know, like looking back, I was terrible at delegating. I didn't want to you know, someone had offered to take the baby, oh, no, I can do it. I can do it all myself, you know, fresher. And then the shame, the shame of reaching out and asking for help, like, it's just, especially the first time but you can see how you can go from there, especially, you know, coupled with all that sleep deprivation, which is a form of torture, as we know, and can very easily lead to depression and anxiety all on its own without anything else involved. You know, Rachel asked sort of the signs and things you know, that you look for. And at what point can you really reach out though, I mean, because we're her gauges, and I say GP can sit down and say well, but for a long time, I wanted to actually write a book called bursting the baby bubble because I think that like you said in the beginning, there's this huge thing about everyone should just be able to do it. It's just so natural. You know, you're such you're a failure if you're having trouble and every everything about it. Everyone has some sort of struggle with it, whether it's breastfeeding or sleep, call it you know, so I just feel I mean, what you guys do is amazing, but you know, how can you go from you know, that more basic stuff where you hear feeling that shame and then maybe getting to that level? Can people just come?

9:49 Arabella Gibson
Look, I think that we through our therapy, we have perinatal mental health specialists. They're very hard to find and I honestly think I put my hand on heart so We've got 100 of the best in the country that work for us. What they do is they provide people with the skills and the tools to understand what it is that they're going through, to process it, to develop the skills that they need to be able to support themselves to spot the signs to pull back, to ask for help. And to kind of manage that journey with them. And it's a really, it's a really, really amazing process. I think to go from feeling those feelings to asking for support is probably the biggest challenge. You're right. However, I would just encourage people to try to normalize those feelings and say, you know, it's okay that I feel like this, I just need to go and get some support. And, and a GP will conduct an assessment. And it's, it's usually an EP DS, which is an Edinburgh postnatal depression scale. And what they'll do is they'll assess, you know, some of the things that you're feeling, and that will give a score, and then that score identifies, you know, what type of support and what level of support you need. And so it's not necessarily sitting down and having, you know, a super heavy conversation with your GP, it's actually just saying, Do you know what? I've been reading about postnatal depression anxiety? Or do you know what my mum or my brother or my sister or my husband or whatever has said to me? Um, bit off at the moment? Not quite myself, I feel like this could be something I should consider. Can we have a chat about it? It can be as simple as that. Yeah. You know, worst case scenario, you are in a position where you've put your hand up, and someone can help you because you put your hand up,

11:40 Rachel
It's just taking that first step, isn't it? Because I think I think there can be a particularly if you've gone from, you know, having a really successful career, you know, businesswoman, whatever, and then you're thrown into this whole new world of parenthood, and you almost if you feel like you can't cope with it, or you're struggling, you feel like you're a failure. And you almost have that sense of shame of not wanting to ask for help, I should be able to do this by myself. So I think that's probably something that holds a lot of women back initially from asking for help, because it's, you know, is it? Is it a site of failure for me to have to need these services? You know, as you said, it's like breaking that that barrier, and that that mentality that it is, okay, these services are out there.

12:24 Arabella Gibson
Yeah. And look, actually, if you want him to be the best parent you can be, then the best thing to do is put your hand up and say, support, because we think that by saying no, no, no, I'll be okay. I'll do it. I don't need help. I'm alright. Daddy da, but and we think that by that we're being perfect, because we're fulfilling all the requirements of parenthood, but actually, what we're doing is the opposite. So yeah, empowering people to accept help to, you know, get the support they need, actually brings out the best in their parenting.

12:59 Sarah
One of the things that's really also to go with what Rachel was saying there about going from career to, you know, becoming a parent, and maybe that's all you're doing for a considerable amount of time. It's a loss of identity. Like, I feel like this whole grieving process of the can't prepare for what I realize. But that that's the part that is really hard to is, especially for women, is this part of you changed forever, you can't ever go back. If you can, over time, gain your identity back, maybe start working again, take care of yourself a little bit more. But in the beginning, it is all about that baby. And yeah, that's the part I think that's so hard as well is and I don't think it's talked about a lot like I think it's really again, one of those things, it's brushed under the carpet. Come on, women are meant to just do this. Yeah, sure. Women had babies back in the day when they didn't work in everything. We were dealing with a different climate, things have changed. And I don't think that we are accommodating for where we are now in the world for women, and having babies as well. I think that's a big thing that's changed to

14:09 Arabella Gibson
Look, it's an enormous adjustment. And I think that the loss of identity is really key. It's very much you go from being in charge of you, yourself. And you know, you're responsible for you when yourself and you choose your time and you choose your place and you choose where you're going and what you're doing and when you're doing it. And all of a sudden you have a burden in that, you know, you have a very much loved burden, no doubt, but it's a burden because all of a sudden you're responsible for another human being. And okay, people say Oh, well, this happens all over the world. Millions of people every day have a baby, and they normalize it in that sense, but I'm sure that that's absolutely true. But it's all relative to who you are, what you know, and what you'd like to achieve. And certainly we know that certain personalities perfectionists. Certainly people who have Love routine and thrive on routine. I like to plan people who we know people who struggled with IVF challenges or people who might have had multiple miscarriage, stillbirth, they might be older mums, or particularly younger mums, there are certain risk factors at play that can make someone more inclined to experience mental health. These are not things to be ashamed about or embarrassed about. We are who we are as humans. And I think it's actually about accepting, that's okay. I like to be a bit of a control freak, I like to be affectionate. I like to be out whatever. And go, that's just who I am. And, and so learning the skills to shift the who I am to manage the situation is actually really important. And that's not something you can expect to happen overnight. And that's why something like perinatal support, mental health support can be really, really good because it just gives you the tools and tips that you need to manage through that process. It's not something to be ashamed of.

16:03 Rachel
Yeah. Do you find you get more of the first time mums that are coming in? Or can some people breeze through their first pregnancy? And then really struggle with their second?

16:12 Arabella Gibson
Yeah, absolutely, we know that it can happen, whether it's, you know, 1234, no matter what baby or multiples for that matter, as well. So it's not specific to the first one or the second one, or it can happen at any point in time, it can be very much hormone related, it can be related to other stressors that might be in your in your life. And you might be someone who's experienced mental ill health previously, which can be another contributing factor as well. But things like moving house, which a lot of people do just before they have a baby, because they need more space. Yeah. That's so true. It might be the shift of not having, you know, the same income that you had before, it might be, you know, the pressures on the partner to deliver when, you know, they're feeling under pressure as well, because all of a sudden, you know, there's not, not many ways they contribute. So they're looking at ways that they can contribute and deliver and, and so on as well. So there's there's many, many contributing factors that can really drive us down this path. And I think awareness is one thing, education is another thing, but it's also about self awareness. And knowing when it is time to say actually, maybe I'm not okay, here, maybe I do need a little bit of support.

17:26 
Yeah. And I guess dads can struggle as well. Is Gidget House just for women? Or is it something that men can go to as well?

17:34 Arabella Gibson
Yeah, no, we look after dads as well. Admittedly, it's a much smaller percentage, but one in 10, dads will suffer from perinatal depression, anxiety. So it's 10% of the population of New parents, which is quite significant. And they're just the ones that are diagnosed, that if you throw on top of that the the amount of stigma around you know, new dads having this illness, the number, the true numbers are probably really far more significant. And I think the other thing that is a significant, you know, statistic to mention is that maternal suicide is the number one cause of death amongst new mums. Oh, wow. Yeah. We can we can be preventable.

18:16 
Absolutely. And as I said, before, you know, so many people will go for months and months and years knees, and don't,

18:22  Sarah
Can you come together? So because obviously another thing that happens, of course, after you have a baby, that changes is the relationship dynamic. And I think people can't also prepare for that, you know, there's so many people parent differently, and the relationship, the gaps, you know, the baby's suddenly taking up the space, the attention, all of these things, again, that, you know, you can think, okay, that's going to happen, but you can't know how that's going to feel the partner can't know how that's going to feel. And you know, it's tricky, then to talk about that as well on your sleep, again, the sleep deprivation, and so couples come as well.

18:57 Arabella Gibson
So, the way our therapy works is that we work with the person who's been diagnosed in the first instance. So if it's mum, or if it's Dad, we work with that person. And we work with them and their bond with the infant as well. In the first instance, from there, if the couple themselves require couples counseling, we can refer out to that. But what we are happy to do is we will, from time to time invite the partner into a session if the person who's been diagnosed is comfortable with that and wants to do that. So we don't actually start the process by having couples therapy because that's not what we offer. We offer perinatal mental health support, but we certainly will integrate that couples support where necessary and in fact, we've just recently done a group therapy program. We run group therapy throughout the year, usually twice a year in turn one and two and then turn three and four. And we've just recently done one for dads in a support role who are supporting mums who are experiencing perinatal depression or anxiety Edie, and that was an amazing group, because actually what it ended up showing us was that many of those dads, funnily enough, actually were experiencing it as well. And they were undiagnosed. And it's because you know, of that stigma and that shame and that fear and that denial and, and the mums had put their hands up and said, You know, I'm really struggling. But in actual fact, it was it was very much both parents were finding it difficult. So we are definitely looking to do more of that kind of work as well working with with dads, as a group and working with mums as a group as well, we find that dads also will do a lot more talking when there's other dads in the room.

20:41 Rachel Chappell
I was gonna send it maybe if there's be as involved, but you don't care if it's at night? Yeah, exactly. Yes. So kitchen houses just had a major upgrade. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What's changed,

20:57 Arabella Gibson
We were very lucky because we've got a number of philanthropic supporters and donors, corporate partners, and also government funding as well. But it's been really hard because during COVID, we've had to cancel three of our mega fundraising events. And, you know, we haven't been able to hold the rest of our fundraisers and that sort of thing. And it's meant that we have, you know, really seen a dip in revenue. But not only that, we've seen a huge increase in service requirements and service delivery need. I mean, if I look at 2020 versus 2021, we increased our services by 127%. Wow. Yeah. It's, it's just, it's madness. And then, again, we're looking at the same increase again, and what we're saying is that there's this thing, we're calling it the COVID. lag. Yes. And what we think is that when people were having babies during the COVID, period, and of course, they had very limited people amount allowed to visit them in hospital, you know, one partner, and that was it. Some of them didn't, weren't even allowed a partner in the room when they gave birth, you know, ya know, mothers groups, no catch ups, right, certain, you know, community things that would normally be organized, they weren't running, no, playgroups, et cetera, et cetera. And what we found was that people were really, really alone. And they didn't know to seek help. They didn't stay. They thought that so many other people were doing it tough during COVID, who am I to complain, I'm in my little silver bubble with my baby, I should just shut up and get on with it kind of thing. And so now we're seeing a delay in people coming forward and saying, Actually, I really do need help. This is not this is not. And so that demand is there. So what we've what we realized was that we needed to double our capacity, our clinical delivery in North Sydney, which is our main site. But we now also have 23 Gidget Houses around the country. And we're looking at growing those this year ahead. We're looking at 10 new sites nationally. And we've got a pretty strong growth trajectory for the next five years. We're now the biggest provider of perinatal mental health services in the country, which is pretty phenomenal. Wow. When you think that our humble beginnings is as a small charity with a fundraising lunch, you know, that occurred once a year. And now here we are with 23 sites, but yeah, good. Raising money has been completely redone. We've doubled the size, clinical size. It's a really beautiful space, it feels very much like, you know, you walk into that house now and it feels like you're going to a really beautiful home that you feel safe in. And it makes people feel comfortable. And it makes people feel relaxed. The minute they walk in, they feel calm. And that's what we tried to create.

23:54 Rachel
Yeah, I would agree with that. Because I was lucky enough to go to the to the launch, it does feel like a house. And the treatment rooms are so warm, and there's you know, a little bouncer in the room, there's room for a pram, it's very, very geared towards, you know, new mums, and it's it doesn't feel clinical, it's just it feels like it's a space that you know, you can openly talk about the issues that you're facing. And yeah, it just it just, as you said, just has a lovely, lovely atmosphere.

24:23 Sarah
 So do people just come sort of for their sessions, or can you spend longer there before after your session and how does it work?

24:31  Arabella Gibson
Yes. So normally what we do is we offer up to 20, free psychological sessions and that there we provide those through a range of different services. So we have mental health nurses, we have clinical psychologists, we have registered normal psychologists, we have occupational therapists, and we also have psychiatry as well. So depending on what's needed and what's required, where you are located, we fit you in with one of our specialists, you can have up to the 20 say Shouldn't you come in for that appointment? Usually, we also do offer a blended approach. So for example, you know, if you're at home and Bob's unwell, and you really struggle to get to an appointment, because you know, you're dealing with a baby that's got temperatures and you don't want to take them out and it's all too hard, then we can offer the Saturday appointments through telehealth and funnily enough, I have to tell you a quick story. Two years ago, I went when COVID hit it was March the 13th. And we knew that we were in a position where we were going to shortly have to stop offering services face to face. And we were really lucky because two years before that, we started a telehealth service called start talking. And start talking offers exactly the same thing that we often get in houses, but it was done through virtual delivery back then it was Skype. Yeah, right. Yeah, that'll last. We offered it through Skype, and we would philanthropically cover the cost of that because Medicare didn't. And so we had been testing that program for two years, we've been running it nationally, and we've been running it with people that were 20 kilometers or more away from a Gidget House location. So we had heaps of regional, rural and remote clients, which was awesome, because it meant that we could really understand what people in the bush were going through versus what people in the cities were going through versus different kinds of multicultural environments and all sorts of things. So it was it was a fascinating experience for us. And what it did was it set us up because comme COVID, we moved every single face to face appointment into virtual delivery within 24 hours. And I guarantee you we did not miss one single consult. Wow. Yeah, so good news. Because I was set up and ready to go. It's amazing.

26:57 Arabella Gibson 
Yeah. And what that meant to those parents at that time, because there was such a heightened level of anxiety at that time was that I could actually still have their appointment, and they didn't have to fill it down. And that was really important. So yeah, but back to your question. You come into the to a gadget house, you can have your session, and then you can head head back out the door, or you can now go through our regenerative garden.

27:26 
Oh, that sounds fancy.

27:30 Arabella Gibson 
We looked at the landscape of the area at Gidget House North Sydney and we thought we could really do some fun stuff here. So we got together with a whole range of amazing organisations within the North Shore zone so landscapes solutions and fundings and flower power and a whole range of different people. And they came together and they helped us create a regenerative wellbeing garden. And in that we have a beautiful orchard space where we have literally this amazing kind of like little citrus section running up here. And then to the right of that we've got a beautiful Aboriginal bush tucker space, we worked with Bush to bowl for that to have some you know, really beautiful items there that you can come along them or plants you can come along and pick and actually my favourite one, it's a mint, it's a wild mint. And and it's a river mint. That's what it is. And you pick it and you just one one leaf and you put in your mouth and you have a chew. It is so amazing that it's stronger than any mint you can buy and sell Wow. That sounds so nice, beautiful if you need a fresh water and thrice that sounds incredible. Now you were saying before we started recording our bill that people can actually volunteer to help maintain, you know, like a community garden, I suppose. Is that how it works? Is that what

29:00 Arabella Gibson 
We would love that so we're looking for people who might like to come you know, for an hour or two on the weekend or during the week whenever it suits them, really, and help us you know, to wait and keep things you know, pruned and looking beautiful and we were also looking to do a special launch of our garden space and we're going to have an Aboriginal smoking ceremony. Oh wow. Which would be amazing as well. So we've got lots of really lovely ways to get involved with The Gidget Foundation and I'd really encourage anyone that's listening who wants to you know, participate in helping us with the gardens or or anything else to contact us via email volunteers at gadget foundation.org.au

29:40 Rachel
Yeah, do get it getting out in the garden is quite therapeutic in itself. Isn't it so good for your mental health just to get that vitamin D and change of scenery

29:51 Sarah
and giving back you know, we give back so that gives you that warning as well. And the moment that sunshine apparently the rain might be staying away which fingers crossed? Yeah. Arabella, thank you so much for what you do. And for your time on the parenting couch podcast today, we can't reiterate enough reach out. Don't feel ashamed because it's better for everyone. You're right. Yeah. See the babies?

30:17 
Yeah, exactly. It's not it's not a sign of failure is that it's a sign of strength to actually recognise that, yes, that you're struggling and Gidget Houses out there and can help you.

30:27 Arabella Gibson 
Absolutely. Thank you so much. It's been so lovely chatting to you, ladies, thank you

30:32 
Lovely to chat to you as well. Thank you so much for joining us.

30:36 
If you want to find out more gidgetfoundation.org.au, is where you can go if you need help. And also, you know, just to find out more of the things that we've we've talked about and what they do and what they're about. So make sure you check out their website. Thank you. And thanks again for tuning in to another episode of the parenting couch, podcast. And Rachael, again, I mean, for all these amazing services that are out there. And you know, I'm so glad that we've got this platform to be able to share them with people and for people to know that they're not alone, you know, in all of these things that go on and I mean, because you wouldn't know would you necessarily about them?

31:18  
No, unless you're hearing about them through mother's groups or, you know, you or North Shore Mums or whatever. It's reaching out and I think sometimes you've got to ask the question first don't know if you've got a problem and sometimes you're too scared to ask that question. So hopefully, you didn't know about The Gidget Foundation and you are struggling, do reach out they are amazing. And they've the 100% are there to help new mums through that really hard time.

31:46  
Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes we don't even realize that we're having that hard time. Do you know what I mean? Like it's it is tricky, you know, you feel like you should do it all and so I'm just yeah I'm so grateful to have had Arabella on to you know, just again, just just to normalize it I think is really important you know that it's perfectly okay to reach out so

32:10  
Great. And be sure guys to if you've enjoyed this episode or enjoyed our other episodes, please do leave us a review. We'd love to hear what you think of the show. Leave us some stars, maybe five would be wonderful. No pressure, no pressure. Yeah, leave us leave us a review. We'd love to hear back from you. Yeah, keep tuning in. There's plenty more good stuff to come.

32:32  
And don't forget you can check out those past episodes on any of the platforms you like to listen North Shore Mums, and we are the parenting couch on all the socials as well. So another you know, if you want to make our egos feel good again there too. You could give us some likes and followers and things as well. That'd be great. Look at us in our 40s Talking likes and follows and oh yes. 

32:55  
Well, I guess that we will be back in two weeks time. We will see you then. Bye.