Domestic Violence & how to leave an abusive partner

In Australia, one in four women have experienced domestic violence in their life. Tragically, one woman in Australia is murdered every week by her partner. And there's an alarming increase in the number of North Shore Mums who are reaching out for advice and support as a result of abuse at home in our Facebook group. 

In this episode of The Parenting Couch podcast, Rachel and Sarah sit down with Jacquie Murray and Courtney Parsons from Mary's House, a refuge on Sydney's North Shore who help women in crisis. In this episode, we talk about: 

• What are the 'red flags' that indicate your partner might be abusive...
• How can you leave if your partner threatens to do something awful
• How can you leave if you don't have any funds behind you
• How Mary's House can help women experiencing abuse
• How to prepare to leave your house without your partner knowing
• What can we, as parents, do to reduce the risk of their child becoming an abuser?
• Local services where women can get support
• How you can support a friend who is going through abuse

About Jacquie Murray

Jacquie Murray is the Fundraising and Engagement Manager at Mary's House. Before joining Mary's House Services, Jacquie worked for the Young Parents Program at Australian Red Cross and as Practice Manager of the Gidget Foundation, an organisation that exists to promote emotional wellbeing for expectant and new parents and to raise awareness of perinatal anxiety and depression amongst women and their families.

About Courtney Parsons

Courtney Parsons is the Service Manger and former Case Worker at Mary's House. Courtney has a Bachelor’s Degree in Social Work from UNSW and has held various practitioner and senior social worker roles in the DV space, before becoming Service Manager at Mary’s House Services.

Domestic Violence Support Services

If you are in immediate danger, call the police emergency on 000. 

Click here for a complete list of local services for women escaping domestic violence.

• 1800RESPECT: 800 737 732
• NSW Domestic Violence Line: 1800 656 463
• NSW Sexual Violence Helpline: 1800 424 017
• Women’s Legal Services NSW
• Domestic Violence Advocacy Service (DVAS) - 1800 810 784 or 02 8745 6999
• Lower North Shore Domestic Violence Network
• Sydney Homeless Connect
• Women & Children First

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Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:02  
Welcome to The Parenting couch with Rachael Chappell and Sarah Levett honest conversations about what parenting is really like. Because let's be real, it can be hard, proudly brought to you by North Shore moms dot Comdata you

Unknown Speaker  0:19  
this episode contains material that some listeners may find confronting. If you require support, please see the show notes for more information. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the parenting couch Podcast. I'm Sarah Levett. And I'm Rachel Chappell. And today we are talking about an issue that affects too many women than it should and that is domestic violence. I just wanted to start with a few statistics in Australia, one in four women have experienced physical or sexual violence by a current or former partner. And also one woman a week is murdered by her partner. I mean, those statistics are absolutely shocking. And I know from the North Shore mom's Facebook group, we get several posts every week, from women who feel trapped in these abusive relationships, and they simply don't know how to leave and they don't think they can. So

Unknown Speaker  1:18  
I'm really pleased that we are talking to the experts in the issue of domestic violence. Today we're talking to Jackie Murray and Courtney Parsons from Mary's house, who help women escape domestic violence. Jackie and Courtney, welcome to The Parenting couch podcast. Thank you so much, Rachel and Sarah, for having us. Thank you. Pleasure. I just thought we should just start Jackie, can you tell us about Mary's house and what you offer? Sure. So Mary's house is a domestic violence service. We're located on Sydney's North Shore. However, we do accept referrals from all across New South Wales and have accepted referrals from outside New South Wales interstate referrals as well. So it's not just for women, and children who are located on the North Shore. It's for anybody, really who would like services that provide them support around escaping domestic violence. So Mary's house is a grassroots organization we came about in 2016, when there was a community need for domestic violence services on the North Shore, our community funded. And we really do Lean on our community to provide support, not only to us, but the women that do need our support. You know, it is a big, it's a big one actually, particularly close to my heart. My mom is actually been writing a play for a very long time. And she's not far from getting it up and off the ground, which is on domestic violence. So there's just always statistics I've been helping her with a website are all very fresh, but also very alarming, obviously, as well. And I think one of the things that she and I talked about, and one of the things that comes up a lot is what you guys do is incredible. But when people get to that point, I mean, that's desperation point. I guess one of the starting points is there are signs and there are things that people can look for in meeting people or at the beginning of a relationship that are red flags, that this could be a perpetrator of domestic violence. Can you talk us through that? A bit as well. So the things that a lot of women report to us and the research shows are specific behaviors in terms of abusive tactics. So the big ones are controlling behavior, charm, jealousy, different forms of emotional abuse and isolation. So at the core of intimate partner violence or domestic abuse, domestic violence is quite a few different terms that are used is power and control. So when when looking at I mean, often people refer to it as domestic abuse, but actually at the very core, it's not about the violence. It's about exerting power and control and creating fear. So really, they're the control is around. People have described, abusers being obsessed with controlling it will often start really small and then escalate to permeating every part of her life. Things like having control or wanting information around where she goes, what she does, who she's with, what she wears access to money. examples given are things like if women are out, having to send photos have to prove her there with them, that they that they're doing what they said they would do.

Unknown Speaker  4:33  
I also want to point out I know we're early on in the in the podcast, I know this is really focused towards moms and not all moms are women, but I just want to own a name that gendered language that we use, because domestic abuse is gendered violence. Overwhelmingly, all the statistics show that overwhelmingly women are victims, survivors and males are perpetrators. Now we'll also talk about support for men that are victims survivors of abuse, but we use the gendered language and I just want to point

Unknown Speaker  5:00  
That out early on as we go through and talk about that one of the big early warning signs is around charm, or red flags. So often that's a tactic used to draw women in. So he may be charming to really affectionate. People might describe charismatic or thoughtful, and it's often quite a deception to mislead those around the person, so they're less likely to be believed. And it can be really convincing that in those early days, the attention and focus and the love is really all on on you, it can often be referred to love bombing, and often men are described as Prince Charming. So all of that's kind of coming in. So jealousy is the other one we spoke about. So that's a means to control and isolate a lot of accusations around affairs or spending time with others. Often there's a correlation to onset an escalation of abuse during pregnancy, or postnatally. Because often, that the abuser will feel that there's a threat to the power and control that they have. Because the focus and attention will be on during pregnancy, on the baby, and then after pregnancy as well. So some of that focus and will be taken off the abuser. And so that's a real loss of sense of loss of power and control. And that what the biggest sense of loss of power and control is when the victim survivor may choose to leave. And that's where we see the highest rates of intimate partner homicide. So Jealousy is a is a really big indicator as well, emotional abuse as the other one. So that can come to minimizing denying, blaming, making threats, constant put downs, those kinds of things. So this is all really what we're talking about is the non physical forms of abusive behavior. People describe emotional abuse often is the hardest

Unknown Speaker  6:51  
element of the abuse and the most difficult to overcome. Because their self esteem is often completely destroyed and eroded. I mean, you hear of stories of partners, you know, saying, if you leave me I'll kill myself, or I will, I'll take the kids away, and you'll never see them again, those kinds of threats that make women feel trapped, it's like, well, I'm going to have that on my conscious, or I'm never going to see my kids again, if I do leave this unhealthy relationship. So what do you do if you're in that situation? Yeah, you're so right, that a lot of those constant threats are very present and are meant to provoke or invoke fear. And that's where that control comes from. So we work with women quite a lot, who have been told, particularly women who might have migrated to Australia, and have been set up around well, these the systems, the police won't believe you and they won't understand you, you might be sent back to your country of origin. If Child Protection get involved, then they won't understand you, and they'll see you as crazy. So you can't tell anyone about it, because everyone will misunderstand you and think you're in the wrong.

Unknown Speaker  8:03  
And very often the abuses are in just by being male essentially, are in a position of power within a lot of these systems as well. So one of the most difficult things, or messages we want to send out is there is always help available, it's really difficult to know that help is available and support is available. And we one of the biggest parts of our jobs is actually assisting women navigate these systems, because the systems of support are so complex and difficult to navigate. That that's one of our biggest roles, as caseworkers in the caseworkers across the sector is really navigating systems and supporting women to get exactly what they can access what they're entitled to. We kind of work within those systems. But I guess the biggest message is, you're not on your own. It's not your fault, and there is support available. So what do you do if you're a stay at home? Mom, your husband earns all the money. You don't have a cent to your name. He's controlling all the finances? How do you leave? Like what are those specific financial systems that are available that can help women get out and not be on the streets? Yeah, so there's actually quite a few different financial supports that are available to women. So services like us, we are linked with financial counselors were linked with local banks were linked in with victim services. There's a scheme that's able to provide financial support in compensation of being a victim survivor of domestic violence. There are certainly options available to women, even from a housing perspective. We've had clients who have been in a home with the perpetrator and that they own the home or that it's jointly owned, and so we can get property exemptions or property ownership exemption so that they can access housing at a subsidized rent and their assets don't come into the assessment of that.

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
So there is certainly support available, I would say, even for women going to their local bank is actually, if you can do that safely, banks are a fantastic source of support financially. So the banking sector have a lot of policies in place to support customers who are experiencing abuse. So going in and asking to speak to the local branch manager, they we've had a lot of really good support and assistance from our branch managers, for our clients. And for women trying to sort through GetSafe bank accounts, for example, a lot of the abuse can be,

Unknown Speaker  10:42  
you know, evidenced through bank accounts as well. So just doing things that are safe from a financial perspective, we also have things like a

Unknown Speaker  10:50  
forensic accountant. So we can link clients with that service. So there's certainly a lot available. But it's just knowing you don't know that all of this is there. And you do feel very trapped. Because the number element is the isolation. So you're really cut off from everyone. So you feel like I've got nowhere to go. And I've got no money. But again, there will always be support available even for the women that we've worked with who are on restricted thesis. So there is still support that we can look at accessing to support those clients, it's very difficult to get things like Centerlink. But there are other payments available. And we also have services like us will have access to some brokerage. So for example, we can support one woman at a time staying in the refuge, and we fully fund their stay, because often they won't have an income. So there's still support available. Absolutely. I think one of the hardest things there, though, new talking about all of that is

Unknown Speaker  11:48  
because obviously what happens is the self esteem, confidence, there'll be confusion, the gaslighting, all of that, you know, that goes on, that's obviously why they're staying as well is then they're getting out safely or having the confidence to even make that call or tell somebody

Unknown Speaker  12:08  
you know, and I think this safety thing is such an important one. I mean, I'm sure that there's strategies and things in place to actually get out because you can't just, you can't just pack a bag and have them say you pack the bag. So if they can get the opportunity to make your call like that. Is that then what happens from there? They're guided through a process. Yeah, absolutely. So we're in a very fortunate position that because we're not government funded, we aren't restricted by the timeframe, we have to support women, but also kind of the conditions of them accessing our support. So a lot of services can only support post separation. But we're in a fortunate position that we can support women at any point on their pathway to safety. So if that's that they're still in the home and want to know how to remain safely in the home, or they're just really this is the first step for them to speak to somebody about what's happening, or they first identified that this is abusive behavior, then we can talk through that maybe connect them. So we have groups that we run, for example, so maybe it's just a connection source, we run morning teas, just for people to connect. And that might be a soft entry point. So it's nonconfrontational. So there's different options like that. We can also, yes, if we connect with our caseworker, we can look at, okay, what do we need you to do to keep us safe as possible, these are the things to watch out for. And these are the things maybe you could be doing in the background. So things like putting getting all of your important documents together if it's safe to do so. So if he doesn't, for example, if the abuser doesn't see that you're collecting these items together only if it's safe to do so passports, birth certificates, marriage certificates, things like that, if it's safe for you to do that, to have a safe bag. Again, if it's safe for you to do that, start packing some items away. Important, sentimental items, for example, it's always really good to have a safe person. So if you have someone that you can trust that you can tell what's going on, maybe a neighbor that you can get to quickly. So we've had women who've had a neighbor or a sister or a friend as a safe person, and we might send the resources to them, rather than to the house. So that's a safer option. So we can certainly support safety's paramount to us and the work that we do. So every single little thing we do safety is a part of that. So particularly knowing, as I said earlier that in the stages of planning to leave and the process of leaving is very high risk for intimate partner homicide. That's the area that we do a lot of work around to keep women as safe as possible. You know, I guess it's doing it secretly, as you say, stashing stuff away and getting all your ducks in a row. And I guess the time when people women can leave is when their husbands are at work. Yes, so the opposite

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
In a nice to leave can be quite varied depending on what the situation is within the home what supports are available to women. So during COVID, we saw that there was a lot less accessibility and a lot less opportunity to leave for women. So we actually got involved with other community organizations to try and mobilize some community protections and safety. So we went with,

Unknown Speaker  15:25  
you know, we were talking about one of our local banks, and we also had a local grocery store. So we wanted to increase accessibility for women, which we're still trying to do, when the opportunities are very, very limited. So we want to really try and meet them, when they're seeking help in the limited opportunities they might have, that services like ours can be available to meet that need when it's needed. I understand and you said this before to that, of course, generally, being a man puts you in a position of power, just you know, depending on a bunch of things, of course, but if you are Anglo male, you are top of the pecking order. So you are sitting up there, very hard for them to understand, of course, what it's like to be in any form of minority because they have never experienced it. However,

Unknown Speaker  16:14  
not all men are perpetrators of domestic violence. So there are only a certain amount that are and often repeat, of course, as well, offenders, I believe, too. So the thing is, I guess this is what I mean, it's a big question and a big thing, but it comes down to their environment, and how they were raised as to why they end up there, right? And again, I know that is big, it's not one simple answer. But are there things that people can do and that we can do as a community, and that we can do better with with helping boys and men? Because it is a problem that we all need to I feel as a community and a society need to be more involved in each in some way? Yes, I think that's a big question. And I could probably give some insight into it. But I really encourage people to look at our watch, it's a really good resource. And obviously, you guys would know about the racing children's network and things like that. But our watch is really great when it talks about the root causes of gendered violence, and that being gender inequality, and some of the drivers behind gendered violence. So a lot of that comes down to obviously, the big one is gender inequality. Another one is looking at gender stereotypes and rigid stereotypes, you know, a lot of people will talk about toxic masculinity as well. So a lot of it goes back to really young children in not defining those gender roles, and also being supportive to our young boys around expression of emotion, and how to do that in a healthy way and supporting them with that expression of emotion. So there's a really great parenting program called emotion coaching, that's a whole, you would have access to a lot of different programs and support out there. But it's really about supporting children, when they're young, feel safe with expressing their emotions. And for young boys for it not to be so rigid around Boys Don't Cry, we don't act that way. Because then what that means is they hold in all these emotions, and the way that they learn to express those is up is either that it's not safe to do so. So I can't express that, that goes against my gender or against what is expected of me.

Unknown Speaker  18:37  
So if we want to treat empathy, what what I find is there's a lot of women doing the work that is it is gendered violence. So we need a lot more. And you're absolutely right. Not all men are violent. And this is really a whole community response needed so that we're looking early on at education, supporting young boys, teaching them what healthy relationships are, that's so important. What is a respectful, healthy relationship and as a parent modeling that, so that we can show how we work through issues together as CO parents, how we show love and empathy and care, kindness, all of those things that you don't you know, so I think that that's very, very important as parents we need to, to really role model what is a healthy, respectful relationship? And we have that conversation with the women that we work with, as difficult as as it has been easy to leave. But it's actually a really important step in their parenting role, because they are teaching their children what is acceptable and not acceptable behavior in a relationship. What is a healthy relationship? What is an equal relationship? What is equality and respect? And I think that that's such an important thing to teach our children early on particularly young

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
And boys, because the evidence shows that men are the perpetrators of violence and intimate partner violence specifically as well. So I guess there are also statistics around the type of violence that occurs when it comes to intimate partner violence compared to general violence, you know, so when we talk about women, they're exposed experiences, violence is very, very different. It's very gendered. So over 90%, of women who experienced abuse or violence occurs by someone known to them over 90%, whereas for men, it's very high, when there's violence, that it's a stranger, the context in which the abuse occurs is very, very different. So for women over between 60 and 70%, is enough in their own home that we can use, the statistics show that for male violence, a lot of that it was by a stranger, outside venues like entertainment venues, for example, often that's on the street. So there's spillover from a venue, and

Unknown Speaker  20:58  
there's a lot of different things we can be doing in terms of behavior and emotions and supporting young boys around those things. I mean, I don't want to put the onus back on schools and education, but it's almost like, it should be almost a part of the education system. We shouldn't I mean, obviously, as parents, we want to do the absolute best and coach our children to emotionally regulate and be good humans, but it's almost like should this be part of the curriculum? Like it's, you know, like a term in one search year of just like learning? I mean, I know there's ethics at school, some kids do ethics, which is really powerful for kids thinking about their behavior and how their behavior has consequences. But it's, I don't know something else that, you know, I mean, I don't want to obviously make everything put back on the education system, because, you know, but I just feel like if you can get it at, get the children when they're young and help them, then we're going to be preventing a whole lot of problems in the future. Yeah, so there's some great programs out there already. And I know that will New South Wales education are looking at bringing in more components about healthy, respectful relationships. And there are great free parenting programs out there, or certainly support services that offer quite a lot of really good parenting programs. So that starts early.

Unknown Speaker  22:17  
In preschools, I'm not sure what's happening in the kind of preschool childcare sector. In primary schools, I know that they're wanting to do a lot more, but you're right, it doesn't need to be earlier. So the one that I've done a bit of work with is Love Bites, and that's in high school. So that's still quite a delay in getting to that messaging. I know, there are new consent laws being brought in that have been brought in. And there's legislation around coercive control. So I do think that a lot of that needs to be embedded in the education system as early as possible, and then continue for what is developmentally and age appropriate for children and young adults. Because there's a lot of exposure to different things that is also part of driving that toxic view around inequality, and treating women a certain way, particularly from a sexual violence perspective. Yeah. So you know, there is a lot of work to be done. And I agree, I think it's, you know, we talk about that whole community response as well. So, you know, early intervention is so key for children. So if we're teaching in those messages from very early on having really good role models, as well, and really creating that social and systemic change around the messaging that we give, I think is really important. You know, I think there's now pornography that plays a huge part in as well. And there needs to be education around that, because that's sort of a It's not new, obviously, but it's causing a whole you know, that's they're starting young now getting access to that, and that is another whole component. I think that's a huge contributor but because, you know, you talk about the fact that so much of it comes down to the beginning of it is about inequality. That's so the education, you know, and then we have pornography which of course objectifies women and it hardcore porn is just vile. You know, this, like you say, a new way of of getting in. And I agree, Rachel on of course, the onus is not all on the schools, but times have changed, and it has to, it has to go with it. Right, in terms of like, it's not just conversations now a little bit about sex education. It's much bigger than that. And, you know, this is a growing problem. It's not like it's reducing, is it? I mean, that's the thing that's frightening. I don't think it's went from your statistics point of view, Jackie, and Courtney, is it getting better or worse, from our perspective, we have never been busier and we continue to get busier, were reaching capacity quite a lot. Our team has grown significantly, in order to try and meet the demands, often services particularly during COVID have just been overwhelmed. And we saw a real change without crisis services. So our frontline services, who would who are the 24 hour

Unknown Speaker  25:00  
I help lines that provide that crisis support over the phone, we saw a real shift where they were so overwhelmed that it was coming down to secondary and tertiary services like ours to pick up a lot of the crisis referral work, the worker and women who were calling in distress in crisis, which services like us are not funded to do. And we don't have the services and programs to support that. But services have been really overwhelmed and inundated. And we've had some of our biggest referral months since inception over the last six months to the point where we had to put a hold on referrals, because we could have processed them and make contact and work through them quickly enough. So certainly across the sector, we've seen significant increases, and we can talk about our services as well, that it's that we've never been busier in terms of people trying to access support. And I think it's important to realize that we're only a very small organization. And we essentially have three services operating from under the Mary's house services umbrella, and that's the refuge, which can accommodate only up to five families at any one time. And then we've got the daisy center. So that's providing those services. And so you know, operating as a hub of services for women who are either, you know, before they leave a relationship while they're leaving that abusive relationship or supporting them when they do leave. And then we've got Lydia houses, our transitional house, our own transitional house, and we received in excess of 300 referrals over the last 12 months. So that's, that's significant. And it's our services tripled, essentially, over the last 12 months. It's just It's terrifying, isn't it really, just to see the demand that is out there? And as you say, it's hard to keep up and you can't help everyone. So if they can't, if you guys can't take them on, well, what else can women do? Where else can they reach out to us for support. So there are different levels of response, that I think are really important to note, depending on people's safety. So there are our crisis frontline services. So for example, if if somebody is at imminent risk or threat, then always call triple low, they are the frontline Protective Service. Now we could talk a lot about whether that's helpful or not for women. And that process in that system, we probably don't have time to go into that. But what I would really suggest is, if there is any safety concern, police are the first responders to that we do have access to other crisis support services as well for women. So a lot of these are state based and nationally based. So we've got one 800 Respect the New South Wales domestic violence line, link to home, which is the accommodation service. And then services like Lifeline and the Kids HelpLine are fantastic. Now, some of those have web web chat functions, which I think are really helpful when people don't necessarily want to talk to somebody about it, you know, not face to face, but sometimes that just takes a bit of that confrontational nature out of it or confronting nature. So I think, you know, the web platforms are really great for people as well. So there's those as our kind of crisis response services. And we also have a lot of local services that if you reach out to, I guess the thing to keep an open mind about is if we can't support you what our role is, and services like ours will often be to connect you with other services. So there's some great services out there locally. So if we don't have the capacity to support or you might not be eligible for our services, or there might be another service that's more appropriate for you, then we can connect you with those services too. So we don't want you to have to, you know, have a list of 10 places to call around. But certainly, so we're a great, we're a great service that's based locally to call. There's a local Catholic care service that run a lot of different programs that are there. They're based in our town, and we've got the northern Center, which covers kind of ride area. We've got Relationships Australia, women and children first is a service very similar to ours that's based on the beach side. And we've got a really great local network that's made up of service providers. They've got some great resources as well to reach out to so that for lower north shore domestic violence network, they've got their own website, they've got some great online resourcing and tools, and options for support as well. Local councils are often a great place to reach out to as well if people are just looking for support. They often have great kind of community noticeboard sort of guide books around connecting with support for different things. So I'd recommend that as well. And there is a lot of support out there. That's what's just so reassuring and if one is, you know, unable to help

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
out or you know too busy or whatever for you know, you can always it's your first it's just, you just got to make that first call don't need that first step, I think the biggest thing for people to really consider is to give an empathic, non judgmental response and to not ignore that disclosure to believe. People, when they're saying, This is what's happened to me, it's not your job to counsel them or problem solve. Sometimes a really simple, I'm really sorry, this has happened to you, or I'm sorry, this is happening. I'm really glad you told me and I'm here for you is the best response we can get just to say they heard that they're not judged that they believed just listening. And really, it's important to check around safety to ask them if there's anything that we can do to help them. So be guided by them around what their needs are. It's never their fault. And there are no excuses for the behavior I think is really important to think about, we do have the opportunity to provide some education and awareness and training as well for our service. So we can provide information resources, at the moment, we're involved in collaborating with services to develop a training and education program in session. So we've been rolling that out into the community being different types of industry and organizations so we can tailor that training to whatever the audience might be. Fantastic. Well, Jackie, and Courtney, thank you so much for your time today. There's so much valuable information in that I think the most important message that I've taken away is that you are never trapped. And there are services out there that can help you escape and you do not deserve to be in that situation. And if you are experiencing abuse, it's okay to leave and you will be okay. Just got to take that first step. Thank you so much, Jackie. And thank you, Courtney, for coming on the parenting couch podcast. Thank you so much, Rachel. Thank you so much, Sarah, for having us today. Thank you, Rachel and Sarah. It's been a pleasure. Great. Thanks, guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for your time. And thank you once again for tuning in to another episode of the parenting couch. Don't forget you can check us out on any of the podcasting platforms. You can listen there. Northshore moms.com.au We are on all the socials North Shore moms and the parenting couch. And Rachel. Take care. Thank you so much again, everybody for listening. Thank you for tuning in, and we'll see you next time. Bye.